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Waltz in Tango Dancing

Enjoy
Garrit


Date:    Mon, 29 Jan 1996 13:46:17 -0800
From:    Larry Carroll
Subject: How to dance tango vals

How do you dance to a tango vals? (If you're not sure what that is, basically
it's a tango in 3/4 time rather than 4/4 (or 2/4) time.)

There are several possibilities. One, of course, is to dance it as a
waltz.  I find this hard to do, since the tempo of tango vals is
usually about that of a Viennese waltz. Another is to dance it as a
tango, stepping on each 1-count of the 1-2-3 rhythm. Everything is
tango style: flowing cat-like walk, the usual tango step patterns, and
so on. You can also do it like a milonga.

My preference is a combination of these choices.

For the rhythm, I step on each 1-count most of the time. Occasionally
I throw in a triple step in time to the 1-2-3 rhythm, but your partner
should be pretty good or she'll have problems. Sometimes I'll take a
step & tap on the each of 2-3 beats. Very rarely I'll do a step-boleo
combination: step on the one count & boleo on the 2-3 beats. Like all
kick or leg-flick steps, boleos are dangerous on a tight dance
floor. It's also hard to do the boleo fast enough to complete it in
the 2-3 beats & still do it right. Usually I'll do the boleo low to
the floor, making it into a tap.

The step patterns I prefer are usually traveling walks of one sort or
the other, though I sometimes throw in a stationary pattern
occasionally, usually molinetes (wheels) or cunitas (rocking steps)
for variety or to keep from running into someone. A grapevine (also
called chain) pattern is a useful traveling pattern. You can also do
ochos. I usually prefer to do traveling ochos, which are cross between
a grapevine and several ochos. I especially like to do a series of
backward ochos while leading my partner in forward ochos. This is
tricky, since I'm going backward along the line of dance & have to
make sure I don't run into anyone, backward ochos are harder to do,
and it's a bit harder on women, since they're used to dancing backward
rather than forward.

The style I prefer is part milonga. I do an up-down pulsing action
with our balance hands (my left, her right). Or I may do a contra-body
forward-back motion of the balance hands, or a canyengue-style
side-rocking action of the upper torso. Usually I try to keep these
very subtle. My preferred style is also part waltz: with a very slight
or no rise-and-fall throughout the 1-2-3, and a more exagerated
rise-and-fall at the end of major phrases of the music.

But however you choose to dance them, you should learn to dance to
tango valses. They include some of the most beautiful tangos ever
written. (My favorites include "Desde el Alma" & "Romance de Barrio."
A great CD with several is Bandoneon #30, with Francisco Canoro's
orchestra.)
                                        Larry de Los Angeles
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Date:    Tue, 5 Nov 1996 14:37:32 -0800
From:    Polo Talnir
Subject: Re: ... Waltz tradition ...

Cristina La Inglesa wrote:
>2) It's been suggested to me by some of my older friends that in certain
>barrios vals was still danced as Vienese waltz (constantly turning, stepping
>1-2-3 almost all the time, and no tango steps!) as recently as twenty years
>ago.  Even now I occasionally see a couple in a milonga do what looks like
>maybe 4 bars of Vienese in the middle of a vals.

Completely accurate. I vividly remember my folks jumping off their
chairs when hearing the first phrase of "Desde El Alma" and dancing it
precisely like that, 1/2 simple vienese-like (with short steps), 1/2
cruzado. Note that in American Waltz there is also a quick "cruzada"
by the woman (not that I know a lot about it ...). And this is indeed
a common way of dancing it today too. E.g. Daniel & Florencia were
teaching yesterday "milonga traspie'" and also taught some Vals. For
both they showed a simple 1-2-3 step in which the only variation was
having the "1" as a step forward or backward and the 2-3 in-place, as
little beat-marking movements. {Aha!, Polo is describing steps over
the e-mail !!}

Tom wrote:
>> It is also impossible to stay sitting down when they play "Desde el Alma."
my parents would have agreed with you totally!

Tom wrote:
>> I would be very interested in how the waltz became part of the tango
>> troika; the milonga, I can kind of imagine, but the waltz?
Alberto wrote:
>> How about somebody guessing why the Tango orchestras played vales, how was
>> it originally danced and who was the pioneer of playing valses at Tango
>> functions.

In booklet #12 of the Corregidor series on History of Tango appears the
best article I found about this, written by Sebastian Piana (long time
collaborator of Homero Manzi). It is in Spanish though ...

According to Piana, the Vals appeared in the Rio de la Plata soon after
its "acceptance" in Europe, around the beginning of the XIX century.
Then we can conclude that the orchestras playing valses was not an out-
of-the-blue occurence, but that Valses were around for a while before
the Tango appeared. The question is particularly interesting because
the Waltz in Europe and the Tango in the Rio de la Plata share quite
a few sociological characteristics, such as not being accepted by
"decent" people because they were too lascivious-promiscuous-
indecent-lo-class etc. I guess that by dancing the local version of
the Waltz (that was also influenced by the so-called Waltz-Boston
from US) the Argentines showed their proclivity for dirty-dancing,
paving the way for the even more cheap, ignominious, despicable
"Tango" , (puahjjhh)  :-).

>> how the waltz became part of the tango
>> troika; the milonga, I can kind of imagine, but the waltz?
Note that the Milonga and the Vals are quite different in this
context. While the Vals followed an independent path, "joining"
the Tango with its appearance, the milonga did not "join" the
Tango, but rather "gave birth" to it ... There is little argument
today among the erudites about the Milonga being a fundamental part
of the Tango ancestry. It's mother, indeed. For the music part of
it, you can easily discover that by yourself, by listening to early
Tangos of the turn of the century. For the dance ... this is a
longer story ...

Does someone volunteer to excerpt a bit of Piana's piece ?. I have no
time right now ... I could fax a photocopy to the volunteer.

Milonguitas,

-Polo
 "La Milonguita"
 polo@informix.com


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Date:    Thu, 7 Nov 1996 11:32:23 -0800
From:    Christine Denniston (through Polo Talnir)
Subject: Re: ... Waltz tradition ...

>While the Vals followed an independent path, "joining"
>the Tango with its appearance, the milonga did not "join" the
>Tango, but rather "gave birth" to it ... There is little argument
>today among the erudites about the Milonga being a fundamental part
>of the Tango ancestry. It's mother, indeed.

Erm....  Actually....
I spend a lot of time at the Academia Nacional de Tango here in Buenos Aires
-- about as erudite as you can get on the subject -- and that's not quite
the whole story.

First of all, waltz is a very important parent of the tango.  Waltz caused
scandal because of the nature of its hold.  Couple dancing had never been
done in the "hug" position before, and that hold (in a modified form) is
fundamental to the tango.  Tango, they say, appeared first as a manner of
dancing to any sort of music, and then as the criollo cocktail of music it
was danced to.  So in being one of the most fundamental influences on the
dance, waltz also had an indirect impact on the music.

Secondly: Milonga.
Now, there's a thing.
There are two distinct musical genres, both of which are called milonga.
There is the milonga as part of the tango trinity as we know it, and there
is the milonga campera or milonga surena, an Argentinian folk music form,
often performed just by a singer with a guitar, and of very clear hispanic
influence.

The milonga campera was very popular in Buenos Aires in the nineteenth
century and the early part of this one.  People would go to listen to
milongas and other folk music, and to dance folk dances, and the places
where this was done came to be known as "milongas".  This became extended to
all places where dancing was done, hence the usage, still current today, of
"milonga" as a place where all three forms of the tango, plus usually jazz
and tropical, are danced.

According to a number of full academicians at the Academia Nacional del
Tango that I have spoken to on this subject, the milonga as we know it, as
part of the tango trinity, was invented in 1932 by Sebastian Piana (who you
mentioned in the context of vals) and Homero Manzi -- the first ever milonga
being their "Milonga Sentimental".  A simple test of this theory is to look
through your own record collection and see if you can find a recording of a
milonga as we know it from the early 30s or the 20s.

The early tango-milongas -- those recorded by Juan "Pacho" Maglio, for
example -- as I understand it (though I think I may be on thinner ice here),
were called that to distinguish them from tango cancio'n, that is, as
tangos for dancing (at a milonga) rather than singing.  I need to do some
more research on that subject.

Incidentally, Piana and Manzi went on in 1940 to invent the candombe as we
know it -- that is, as a kind of kid brother of the milonga, completely
distinct from the Uruguayan candombe, a music form and dance created by the
black population of the River Plate area.  The snatches of Uruguayan
candombe I've heard really are very diferent from the (tango) candombes that
I knew before I came here.

I'm not on the TANGO-l list -- I use an e-mail payphone at the moment so
it's not very practical.  But I like to hear from people.

Hope this was interesting.

love

Christine Denniston (Cristina La Inglesa)

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Date:    Tue, 12 Nov 1996 14:05:03 -0800
From:    Polo Talnir
Subject: Re: ... Waltz tradition ...


Here are some comments on Christine "La Inglesa" Denniston's message
of Nov. 7.

Hello there Cristina, hope you are having a great time in BsAs!

Did you go to any of "La Cumbre" events in Uruguay ? Impressions ?

Comments on your message, the Vals question, the milonga story follow ...

You quoted me/wrote:
>> At 14:37 5/11/96 -0800, you wrote:
>>
>> >While the Vals followed an independent path, "joining"
>> >the Tango with its appearance, the milonga did not "join" the
>> >Tango, but rather "gave birth" to it ... There is little argument
>> >today among the erudites about the Milonga being a fundamental part
>> >of the Tango ancestry. It's his mother, indeed.
>>
>> Erm....  Actually....
>> I spend a lot of time at the Academia Nacional de Tango here in Buenos Aires
>> -- about as erudite as you can get on the subject -- and that's not quite
>> the whole story.

Of course not!. It is impossible to capture that much in 2 sentences ...
There are full treatises written on these topics. Likewise, neither your
posting nor the following comments of mine are "quite the whole story".
They can not be.

>> First of all, waltz is a very important parent of the tango.
The parental role of waltz in the tango is new to me. In no source that I
consulted the Vals is mentioned as a "parent" of Tango as a dance. The
influence of one dance form in a different dance form is easy to accept.
Influence, but not very important parenthood.

E.g. without going very far away from the SF Bay Area, when Mariela
Franganillo came to us, she joined both the Tango and the Salsa
communities. Surely enough, soon you started to see ganchos and boleos,
first in Mariela's own Salsa performances, and then in other's ... A clear
influence of Show Tango into Show Salsa. No need to explain this a lot
more. People danced a Vals in the patio of the conventillo (tenement house),
and without even thinking about it, they borrowed elements of that dance
into the early Tango dance. Nothing can be more natural than this as
a way of one dance influencing another.

As your assertion intrigued me, I did go and asked a couple of tangueros
whether they could recognize a strong relationship between the way that
the earliest Tango dance style we saw, the Canyengue style brought to
us some time ago by one of the few couples from BsAs that make an attempt
to preserve it, Rodolfo y Maria Cieri, and the Waltz, and after some
thinking no one could figure it out. Neither did I. Not that any of us
is really a phenomenal investigator of the issue, but at least, some
intuitive impression ... if this influence is obvious, then any Joe in
town should be able to discover it. Somewhat like the decently obvious
relationship between the Habanera and the Milonga, I mean.

Can you cite one of those "erudite" sources that attributes to Waltz
a parental relationship to Tango?. More important, is the source you
consulted a dancer ?. When issues related with development of popular
culture are discussed, I tend to value intuitive, not-so-learned input.
After all, if we are talking about a popular phenomenon, it was such
not-so-learned population that created it, then, I submit, the claimed
relationships should be rather intuitive and obvious to corroborate.

The commonly cited parents of the Tango music are the Milonga (or
Milonga Porten~a, in its XIX century incarnation), the Milonga campera
(directly related to the Milonga, a descendent of the Cuban Habanera and
sister of the Uruguayan Candombe) and the Tango Andaluz. Explaining the
adjective "porten~a" is a bit more complex. More on that below. Some
authors relate the Milonga campera to the guajira flamenca. Also on this
there is more below.

In passing, I want to mention that the "influence" of the Tango Andaluz on
Tango, which I cited only because it became sort of "folk knowledge", is
not clear at all. Carlos Vega, prominent musicologist, sketched and published
this theory back in 1936. Ironically enough, in the "Antologia del Tango
Rioplatense", one of the most comprehensive works on this topic that I ever
saw, published in 1980 by the Instituto Nacional de Musicologia ....
"Carlos Vega" .... the team of researchers contests this opinion of Vega
mainly because of lack of documentary evidence. It is clearer, though, that
the Tango andaluz was very influenced by the Habanera, or "Tango Americano".
The same Habanera that is identified as the Milonga's ancestor. The Tango
Andaluz was apparently short lived as an independent species and was
incorporated into theatrical pieces as Tango de Zarzuelas. This did not
have choreography, the research team concludes. Let me add that Vega's
theory about the Tango andaluz is contested also by others.

>> Waltz caused
>> scandal because of the nature of its hold.  Couple dancing had never been
>> done in the "hug" position before, and that hold (in a modified form) is
>> fundamental to the tango.

Yes, that makes the exercise of finding parallelisms between the two quite
interesting, as I mentioned before:
>>>> The question is particularly interesting because
>>>> the Waltz in Europe and the Tango in the Rio de la Plata share quite
>>>> a few sociological characteristics, such as not being accepted by
>>>> "decent" people because they were too lascivious-promiscuous-
>>>> indecent-lo-class etc.
Still this does not establish that the Tango embrace was taken directly
from the Waltz. I have my doubts about this. E.g. we do know that not only
the Waltz was danced in an embrace by the time of gestation of Tango.

Fernando Asunca~o, Uruguayan essay-writer and researcher, writes in his
"El Tango y sus Circunstancias" that "by the third decade of the XIX
century, it acquires particular prestige and becomes fashionable in
all social strata in Central Europe" .... "Its name: the Polka, its cradle:
bohemia"
....

"The polca, playful and less sensual perhaps, but more vibrant, more material
and less romantic that the Vals, competes with it and succeeds, in great
measures, to displace it in popularity".
....
"... nobody resisted to its magic and everyone would dance it, with its
little linear trots, kicks and "sentadas" "
....
"This, in the urban "orilla", would relate with the milongas and milongones
of afro influence .... and would bounce back to the rural surroundings as
the milonga campera or milonga-cancion ...."

Asunc~ao mentions other popular dances, like the schottisch and the mazurek
(mazurca), but does not assign to these a big influence on Tango.

>>  Tango, they say, appeared first as a manner of
>> dancing to any sort of music, and then as the criollo cocktail of music it
>> was danced to.  So in being one of the most fundamental influences on the
>> dance, waltz also had an indirect impact on the music.

Well, again. "most fundamental influence" is new to me. The Tango as a
dance was highly influenced by the dancing of the blacks, both locals and
sailors that came on ships to visit the ports of Buenos Aires and
Montevideo. "El Tango de negros", the compadrito porten~o imitating them
back in 187x, creating what would be the Tango. And the workers of the
slaughter houses in what is today Parque de los Patricios imitating the
compadritos, etc. A whole treatise could be (and many have actually been)
written on this.

>From the quotes from Asunc~ao's book that I brought above, we can learn
that the Polka, of (very) popular origin in Europe, was an important part
of the mixture influencing the Tango (note that "parenthood" is not
claimed, just "relationship", interpretable as "influence". Parenthood
is a different thing).

Waltz a parent of Tango as a dance?. Maybe. I would like to hear from
some literate guru from the Academia del Tango about this, for me, new,
spin on Tango dance ancestry. I am curious. "El pueblo quiere saber ...".
The people wants to know. I would especially value the input from a dancer
(not just from a dance researcher or musicologist).

For the time being, I will keep my belief that the Vals in the cities of
the Rio de la Plata was a parallel phenomenon to the creation of the
Tango as a dance. Probably there was *some* influence from it as well.
Parental relationship?. I have no evidence of this yet, neither
intuitive nor documentary. Major influence?. Also about this I have
doubts.

To Alberto's challenge regarding how the Vals became part of the Tango
"troika", my intuitive, not very learned answer, would be: the Vals was
always around: there was no time at which, in the patio del conventillo,
the local musical "talent" did not play a vals here and there. Without
being a musician I adventure to say that a simple Vals rhythm with some
decent melody behind it, just for the folks of the tenement house dancing
enjoyment, should be decently easy to pull off a guitar (even if the
guitar player is not precisely Eduardo Falu ...) (may I confide that
a number of years back I started learning certain musical instrument
- which I won't identify because I might go to jail :-) - and guess what
was one the first pieces I played on it ....)

>> According to a number of full academicians at the Academia Nacional del
>> Tango that I have spoken to on this subject, the milonga as we know it, as
>> part of the tango trinity, was invented in 1932 by Sebastian Piana (who you
>> mentioned in the context of vals) and Homero Manzi -- the first ever milonga
>> being their "Milonga Sentimental".  A simple test of this theory is to look
>> through your own record collection and see if you can find a recording of a
>> milonga as we know it from the early 30s or the 20s.

There is no need to go and test this a lot. This is an acknowledged fact.
In an 1977 essay on Milonga, dedicated to Sebastian Piana, poet Leon Benaros
writes in its opening paragraph:
"The rescuing of the old *milonga porten~a* both as a dance and as a song;
its musical enrichment, while preserving its character and its legitimate
roots; its freedom from certain monotony, that made it sound somewhat like
a "weary dog's little trot"; its definitive revitalization that brought it
back to our days as a contemporary presence; these are all facts that
recognize, beyond any doubt, one and only father: Sebastian Piana".

I propose we all stop at this point for a minute and join Benaros in
honoring the memory of Maestro Piana, for returning to us this much joy,
that was somewhat lost before his Milonga Sentimental, with lyrics by the
great poet Homero Manzi.

I have some reservations on your use of the word "invented" though ...
I commented on this towards the end of this message.

I am not sure I understood your point. It is clear that the modern
Milonga Porten~a (Piana's) could not have been the ancestor of Tango.
The milonga that was the ancestor of Tango was the milonga known in the
Rio de la Plata around 1860. Piana's revitalization came 70+ years later.

Limiting the meaning of "Milonga" to the music, Roberto Selles writes:
"The milonga, in its origin is an adaptation of the Guajira flamenca,
itself an adaptation of the homonymous cuban Guajira ... It is born
around 1860 as a song, acquires choreography before the 70, and since then
modifies its ternary rhythm to a 2/4. Adopting during the decade of
the 80s, or at beginnings of the following one, the name of "Tango", due
to the increasing popularity of the tango andaluz."

I am not sure about how different the guajira is from the habanera cubana,
but frankly, I went through the exercise of taking a few habaneras, that
continued to be played by cuban sextets and septets until the 30s,
in a style that was apparently similar to that used 60 years before,
removed the percussion and what remained was quite clearly a guitar work
that had a lot in common with the accompanyment of the "canto por cifra"
of the payadores in the Rio de la Plata. In short, musically, for my not
so well trained musical ear, I need very little additional proof of the
ancestry of the Milonga, and of it being a direct descendent of the cuban
habanera. Also, there is a simpler exercise that everyone can do, as the
source is probably in your or your friend's  CD shelf. Take Bizet's Opera
"Carmen" and search the "Habanera" piece. It should take anyone no more than
5 seconds to sing it faster, with pure modern Milonga tempo. I am curious
why no group has yet recorded a Milonga with this melody (that I know, I
mean) (?)

The question of the name "milonga porten~a" that I mentioned above, relates
to the fact that before 1880, that is when Buenos Aires became the capital
of Argentina, the province of Buenos Aires (quite a large territory), because
of the port of BsAs, was also known as the "provincia porten~a". Therefore
the name "milonga porten~a" would have been applied not necessarily only to
this genre as played in the city (or rather city's border, "orilla"), but
also to the Milonga as played all over the province. And this was the
"milonga campera" or "suren~a".

Concisely, Ventura R. Lynch, in his book "The Province of Buenos Aires Until
the Definition of the Issue of the Capital City" (La provincia de BsAs hasta
la definicion de la cuestion capital) of 1883 says:
"from the sung milonga we transitioned to the danced milonga ..... the
milonga was similar to the style of singing "cantar por cifra", with the
difference that "cantar por cifra" belongs to the gaucho payador, and in the
milonga we worship the compadrito. The milonga is for "dancing fun"
(zandunguera); the "cantar por cifra" is more serious..."

(tn. "cantar por cifra" was the style of improvised singing used by the
popular "payadores", singers from the people, for the people, that
existed until around the turn of the century in Argentina's provinces, with
some famous ones extending their presence to the "orilla" of the City,
frequently hopping from town to town, getting occasionally some free
drinks and food for their "performances" and competitions with each other,
the last ones, occasionally ending in real knife fights)

>From this we can conclude that a few years before 1880, the milonga existed
for singing, but there was a transition to milongas for dancing around that
time frame, which coincides with the period of gestation of the Tango. This
does not mean that the milongas were not sung after the 1880s, but rather,
that the emphasis moved to the dance. But the lyrics kept always "intention
and naughtiness", points out Bernardo Gonzalez Arrili in "Buenos Aires, 1900".

>> The early tango-milongas -- those recorded by Juan "Pacho" Maglio, for
>> example -- as I understand it (though I think I may be on thinner ice here),
>> were called that to distinguish them from tango cancio'n, that is, as
>> tangos for dancing (at a milonga) rather than singing.

The early Tangos, many of which were called "Tango-Milonga", still carried
a lot of the milonga rhythm and cadence. Other Tangos were named "Tango
Criollo", to differentiate them from "Tangos andaluces" that were still
used in theatrical pieces (Zarzuelas & Zarzuelas Criollas). These
denominations disappeared from the scores by 1910 (give or take a couple
of years).



That was the way that the Tango was played until the late 10's, early 20's.
There are a few groups that have revived that style and recorded it for
us to enjoy (Palais de Glace, de la Ochava, Los Porten~itos, Los Muchachos
de Antes, Punta y Taco, Cedron, del Centenario etc, mostly quartets).

It was not until 1917 that the Tango cancio'n made its "official" appearance,
with lyrics still from bordello's thematic (there is controversy regarding
whether this first Tango-Cancion had lyrics with bordello's flavor), with
Gardel singing Pascual Contursi's Mi Noche Triste (my blue night) with
music by Samuel Castriota. Until then (e.g. Pacho's time that you mention)
some Tangos had only anonymous, naughty-to-porno verses. Probably an
evolution of the "intention and naughtiness" found in the verses of the
mother Milonga that Arrili alluded to. Sometimes these "anonymous" lyrics
had to do with the politics of the time (like a "milonga mitrista", in
favor of Bartolome Mitre's campaign). A few earlier rhymes for Tangos
from the end of the XIX century are known. Angel Villoldo himself, known
as a he was, capable of capturing nuances from the surroundings and
making up some verses for Tangos out of them, authored a few.

All this does not mean that there were no performaces of sung Tangos before
Gardel. "Pepita Avellaneda" - a pseudonym of a then famous tango singer -
had her Tango number years before that. But nevertheless 1917 marks the
"official" beginning of what became the Tango Cancion according to most
researchers.

>> Incidentally, Piana and Manzi went on in 1940 to invent the candombe as we
>> know it -- that is, as a kind of kid brother of the milonga, completely
>> distinct from the Uruguayan candombe, a music form and dance created by the
>> black population of the River Plate area.

"Completely distinct"?
The Tango'ized/Milonga'ized version of the Uruguayan Candombe relates to
the Urug. Candombe, more or less in the same way that the modern, Piana's
Milonga relates to the original Milonga of the past century. My preferred
language do describe Piana's contribution to the reappearance of the
Milonga and Candombe is that Piana and Manzi gave to the old milonga a face
lift, dressed it up with new Tango clothes and revived it into the modern
Tango world. The word "invent" is explained in the Webster's dictionary as
"To produce or contrive (something previously unknown) by the use of
ingenuity or imagination." I can identify clearly the ingenuity or
imagination present in these Maestros work, but the milonga was not
previously unknown ...

I don't mean to diminish in any way the merits of Piana and Manzi.
Quite the opposite: we should be highly appreciative of their role in
rescuing the departing Milonga (and brother Candombe) for us.
I am only saying that "invention" may be a misnomer.

(Even Piana, in an article published in La Maga -1993- when referring to
his contribution in reviving the Candombe, does not call it an invention
but describes it as a renewal exercise similar to what they did with the
old Milonga)

>> The snatches of Uruguayan
>> candombe I've heard really are very diferent from the (tango) candombes
>> that I knew before I came here.

Probably as different as a Milonga campera (listen to some Eduardo Falu or
Atahualpa Yupanqui) and a (modern) Milonga porten~a played by D'Arienzo.

----

By the way, there is already a volunteer to do some translation and
excerpting of S. Piana's article on Vals. So, may be in a few days we
have more on that ...

Milonguitas!

-Polo
 "La Milonguita"


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Garrit Fleischmann 12.Nov.96
Email: kontakt(at)cyber-tango.com